(no subject)

[elspethdixon]

Oh, wait. I have a dreamwidth. I should use it more.

At some point I need to collect all the comments I've made on ff_a patiently explaining Why Exactly Gay/Lesbian/Bi Fans Find "Good Omens is Amazing Queer Rep and If You Disagree You Hate Ace/Aro/Non-binary People" Discourse Annoying and edit them into one big "Neil did nothing wrong but this is part of an overall trend and that's why people are mad" post.

I can add it to the "some day I actually need to write my grand master unified field theory post on the no homo phenomenon in fandom that covers everything from old school smarm to modern day purity discourse" pile.

Comments

[sami]

I am torn between "I really want to read that" and "I suspect that will make me very very angry."

But I haven't read any of the meta.

That said - it's pretty faithful to a decades-old book, so holding it accountable to current trends is a little unfair, surely?

[elspethdixon]

Part of the issue is post-millenials/high schoolers & college students on tumblr not fully realizing that the show is based on a decades-old book (a book by two straight guys who 100% never realized how very much Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship reads like a very slowburn gay romance and who 100% intended those comments about Aziraphale's epic gayness as straight dude lol gay jokes) and expecting too much from Neil Gaiman and Amazon - I think a lot of younger people on tumblr truly don't realize that wishy-washy creator-tries-to-have-it-both-ways statements like "The important thing is that A and C care deeply about each other and that relationship is the core of the show. Viewers can interpret it how they want," are literally the best gay/lesbian/bi fans and slashers can generally expect and that historically most creators have directly shut gay and lesbian readings down with "Ew, they are completely platonic friends and nothing else!", often with a bonus, "And now that I know people ship them I will shoehorn one of both of them into a half-assed last-minute het relationship and/or ensure that they will never appear on screen together again."

[sami]

I just want to say, in case I'm judging my tone badly at the moment due to reasons of my tremendous wholly-non-fandom-related upsetness you're aware of, the tone of this comment is supposed to be *polite* and *respectful* even where I disagree with you. I'm trying hard to make it so but I want to be clear about that in case I don't wholly succeed. And if I do fail at tone I apologise in advance. And will apologise again if you point out something that offends you.

IIRC in the decades since Gaiman's comments have been along the lines of "your headcanon is totally valid", and it's not like he hasn't had a lot of other queer representation in his work. Terry Pratchett had a lot fewer major queer characters, but he also didn't really ever hit "lol gay", so I am a leetle bit, "... Source?" about the idea that Aziraphale was supposed to be "lol gay".

Especially because he's an angel, they're not sexual creatures. (Which is also consistent through both authors' works.) If anything, the idea that someone who is gentle, and who Loves Everyone, and just likes nice things will seem, for want of a better word, effete is a remarkably early critique of toxic masculinity. Yeah, Shadwell calls him a pansy, but he calls him a southern pansy, which carries some really important cultural attachments.

I had a glance at some of the discussion around this and then closed all tabs on it because it made me quite angry.

Because the thing is - I'm 38. I turn 39 in a couple of weeks.

And this is the first time in my life I can recall that I've seen a love story on screen that I can really relate to. There haven't been a lot of things that are particularly fulfilling for gay/lesbian/bi/slasher viewers, but there've been some. I've heard a lot about Black Sails, alone.

But this is a love story where neither character has an acknowledge sexuality at all. There's no angst or anguish over it. There's no deliberate avoidance of it by having at least one of them have sex with someone else, either.

I find sex and sexuality kind of repellent, and I live in a world where it's inescapable, but now I have this one TV show that has a love story that's pure and beautiful, and I'm not sure I have words for how angry and upset I'd have been if they'd shoehorned a sexual/romantic aspect to the relationship between an angel and a fallen angel.

And the thing is that attacking it for not having enough Queer Representation seems a bit... not okay given that there's a whole group of queer people for whom this is the first and only representation we've EVER HAD.

Why does that not count?

Every so often asexual people will get to hear something about how sex is a basic human urge that everyone has, which carries the implication that we're somehow less than human for not having it.

Aziraphale and Crowley aren't human, and it seems like even if they're not human, people still don't want us to see any characters who can fall in love without it being a sex thing.

Like it's not queer representation if the queers being represented include me.

That's kind of problematic, to me.

[princessofgeeks]

I wish to subscribe to this newsletter, and if you end up repasting comments or doing it piecemeal that would be fine too.

I forget about FF_A... I find it interesting but it's hard to find topics and then I forget to look.

[elspethdixon]

Pat A of the newsletter would be titled "The Neverending Hurt/Comfort Syndrome: Gen H/C Fandom's Persistent No Homo Problem."

It would be illustrated with a picture of the green gen icon from AO3 accompanied by a caption saying: "THIS PICTURE MEANS IT'S GEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAG IT WITH 'NOT SLASH' ALSO IT IS 2019 HOW DO YOU PEOPLE STILL NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE / AND & SYMBOLS OH MY FUCKING GOD"

[sami]

There's such a huge and problematic difference between tagging "not slash" and "gen".

Also, the / & thing is so infuriating.

If your fic has characters tagged & I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO READ ABOUT THEIR SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP OH MY GOD.

I'm not opposed to all sexual/romantic relationships and sometimes I totally do want to read that but I also have characters where I ship their friendship really hard and I WANT THAT TAG TOO.

Sometimes I just want to read about characters being BFFs and that is not the same thing as wanting to read about them being romantic, those are DIFFERENT.

Like, I am here for Tony Stark to be & or / with Steve Rogers and Pepper Potts but I am NOT here for that / if it's pretty much anyone else and that is a preference I think is defensible and THAT'S WHAT TAGS ARE FOR.

[princessofgeeks]

LOL.