Speak up, speak out, and let your keyboard do the talking as well as your money

[elspethdixon]

God, I feel almost embarrassed to post this - I sound like I'm telling people to "organize and fight, for the Union makes us strong" or something, when I'm just talking about comic books.


Edit: This essay/rant is very, um... virulent in places. If you just want contact info for Marvel writers without potential wank (or really like Ed Brubaker, current Captain America storylines, Joe Quesada, Brand New Day, etc. and don't want to see them viciously criticized in my post and/or in comments), you might want just the contact info by itself]

[Return of Edit: I'm just going to quote my words from down in the comments. Elipses indicate parts cut for length: This (Steve's death & replacement by Bucky) is a topic that it turns out can still make me upset to the point of tears after a year and a half, and it's turning out to not be something I can debate respectfully or politely... So my apologies for the overly emotional nature of the whole conversation and I think I probably ought to shut up now.... I'm freezing comments on this whole post before I truly lose it and land us all on fandom_wank... because I'm clearly not mature enough or emotionally stable enough for this discussion.]


There are people on my flist, I know, who are pretty zen about current comics canon ("The writers/creators honestly think they're doing the best thing for the title," etc.). There are others of us who are varying degrees of disatisfied/annoyed/tired-of-depressing-shit/one-step-away-from-dropping-a-title-if-the-writer-does-X-one-more-time. There are also some of who think a particular writer/artist/storyline is sheer brilliance, and love every issue of it (for the beauty that is Thor, Straczynski, I will almost forgive you for Brand New Day - especially since I know you were compelled to write it by outside forces in the first place). Others of us like current canon, but with reservations (Bendis, you can do almost no wrong in my eyes after the Confession and your Daredevil run, but if you had retconed Tony into a skrull, I would have, in the immortal words of Bender, lost all respect for you and punched you).

Whatever your opinion is, you aren't necessarily limited to just airing it anonymously in the internet. You can actually do your ranting or squeeing directly to the Marvel creative staff.

Ed Brubaker (Captain America, Daredevil): edbrubaker@gmail.com
Joe Quesada (editor in chief): joe@joequesada.com
Brian Michael Bendis (New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Secret Invasion, pretty much everything Avengers related):
Message board: http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/
Myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/brianmichaelbendis

My attempt to dig up email addresses for J.M. Straczynski (former writer of Spider-man, current writer of Thor), Matt Fraction (Invincible Iron Man), and Daniel & Charlie Knauf (the Execute Program and Haunted arcs of volume 4 Iron Man) have so far been unsuccessful, so if anyone can contribute contact info for them, I'd be thrilled. Especially Straczynski & the Knaufs, because I'd actually like to send them squee ("ZOMG, I love Thor. It is my happy place. And if you ever have Girl!Loki and Thor or Girl!Loki and Baldur make out, I will worship you forever!" and "Thank you for your awesome run on Iron Man. I was terribly disappointed to see you leave the title and enjoyed your writing very much," that kind of thing).

General Marvel contacts: http://www.marvel.com/company/index.htm?sub=feedback_current.php

Writers can be lovely people with the best intentions in the world, and still screw up and produce lousy storylines/bad characterization/stupidity (or, conversely, can be complete and utter dicks who nevertheless write brilliantly). After all, the writers responsible for "The Crossing" probably had good intentions, too, and for all I know, Rob Liefeld may honestly think the people he draws look like actual humans. Mark Millar seems to be a relatively decent guy in real life and to honestly be a fan of the Marvel characters he writes, but he managed to produce "Ultimates" anyway. The thing is, they won't know that their brilliant new direction for title X is actually considerably less than brilliant and guaranteed to lose Marvel your $3 a month in sales revenue unless someone tells them.

They also won't know how much you squeed over X particular storyline and are prepared to shell out any manner of money for more of the same unless someone tells them that, too.

In many fandoms, the only recourse for fans dissatisfied with canon is to bitch about it on the intarwebs and seek refuge in fic. Comics are not most fandoms. A successful comic book has a circulation of thousands (as opposed to a successful tv show, which generally numbers its viewership in the millions), and they have hard sales figures every month to gauge reader reactions by (Captain America, for example, has gradually lost over a quarter of its readership in the past year, including a sudden, measurable drop in sales the month Brubaker put Bucky in the costume). Thanks in no small part to this, the comics industry listens to fan input a great deal more than television studios do (and way, way more than individual authors or movie studios are ever going to do). Not everyone thinks this is necessarily a good thing. I'm relatively in favor of it -- after all, it's fans' money that drives the industry, plus, what makes the current writer of Batman, X-Men, Iron Man, etc. necessarily any better an authority on the characters than any other fan? He or she is almost certainly started out as just another fan like the rest of us -- they were just lucky or skilled enough to land the enviable career opportunity to write fanfic for money.

Comics fanboys know this -- it's one of the reasons they're so filled with what livejournal circles would call fannish entitlement. Loud, angry demands from fans were what brought Hal Jordan back from the dead (along with Green Arrow, hopefully Ted Kord, and just possibly Stephanie Brown, unless the new Spoiler storyline is just another exercise in jerking female characters around). An outpouring of enthusiastic fanmail coupled with record sales statistics is the entire reason Amazing Spider-Man exists in the first place.*

People like GirlWonder are the reason Steph is coming back, and if a few less women get shoved into refrigerators in comics in the future, it will be directly because of feminist comics fans speaking up. Fanboys may be more numerous and louder, but fangirls are not powerless, and we're not as outnumbered as you might think. And while some fanboys might be "the enemy" when it comes to never wanting to see a statue of MJ doing laundry again, when it comes to wanting to see Steve Rogers alive again, the fanboys have got our backs.

There are over 200 people on cap_ironman. That's almost 3% of Captain America's entire readership.** Whatever your opinion is, if you make it known to Marvel, it may have more influence than you think. Especially right now, when the Marvel creative teams are in the process of scripting what they're going to do after Secret Invasion is over. That three-issue Bucky-fights-commies arc Brubaker's going to be writing this fall after he supposedly wraps up his current storyline? Pure filler. And the not-up-in-solicitations-yet stuff that's going to come after it isn't set in stone yet. It's barely even scripted yet, if that. And the same goes for everyone else's six-to-twelve-months-in-the-future stuff.

Note: If you're writing to express dissatisfaction rather than squee, I have a feeling a carefully laid out list of all the ways in which you/your comics/your editorial decisions/[insert here] are made of fail, with explanations for each one, is probably more convincing (and a worse blow to a writer's ego) than "I hate you, Quesada!" or "Fuck you, Brubaker, you suck!" (I'm betting Brubaker probably gets dozens of those a week from fanboys already). However, if you feel that "Fuck you, Brubaker, you suck, and I'll never buy this title again!" is the phrase that best sums up your feelings, don't let me discourage you; enough of those make an impact, too.*** Or, you know, if all you want to say is "ZOMG, Warren Ellis, I want to bear your children!"****

[Edit: It has been brought to my attentention that cussing writers/editors out is extremely rude, and may not just be less effective than less-confrontational approaches but possibly actually counter-productive. So I guess you ought to weigh the possibiity of the person you're contacting either not taking you seriously or being hurt against the satisfaction you might derive from telling them to go f**k themselves. It may not be worth it.]

I have been boycotting purchasing Captain America ever since issue #34, when Bucky put on the fake!Cap costume. This doesn't mean I'm not still reading it -- I stand there in the comic store and flip through it every month, assuaging my guilt at not paying the store owners with the fact that I am buying at least one issue of something every time I go in there -- but I refuse to actually purchase it, increase its sales by one, and give the idea of anyone other than Steve in that costume my tacit support. I won't pay money for a Captain America that doesn't have Steve Rogers in it, because I don't feel that it's worth my money, and I'm tired of reading depressing storylines that move at the pace of frozen molasses while waiting for him to come back. I've personally emailed Ed Brubaker and told him this (I've also emailed him to express my discomfort over brainwashed, pregnant Sharon and crazy Milla), but I have a feeling that my monthly contribution to the title's drop in sales is at least as valuable a vote of no confidence as the email I sent.*****


* Peter Parker's origin story originally appeared in the final issue of a nearly-defunct comic called "Amazing Tales," because Stan Lee wanted to write it but wasn't sure anyone would want to buy it. The loudly enthusiastic fan responses the issue received were what got Spidey his own title.

** I keep using CA as an example because it's the only one I know the sales stats for -- watching the sales drop steadily over the past year has brought me a vindictive joy, because I am not a nice person.

***Other possibly effective things to mention include Sue Dibney (maybe in reference to "why does Sharon Carter have to be pregnant and brainwashed and Mila Murdock have to be crazy?"), the guy who wrote Capwolf, and veterans. Also, any and all mentions of "I will stop buying this title if you do Y/will not buy it again until you do Y/will keep buying it gleefully every month as long a Z keeps happening," are probably good things to say to any comics industry person in general.

****I do not have Warren Ellis's email, but he's on livejournal, so he shouldn't be too hard to find.

*****Sending off that email gave me a great sense of satisfaction, though -- it almost quelled my rage over the fact that the May issue of CA wherein it had been heavily hinted that Steve might be back (which came outthe day I got my graduate degree and immediately before Memorial Day) turned out to be a cheap bait-and-switch trick.

Comments

(frozen)

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

Okay, here are my two cents - I was talking to a major Marvel editor (in passing, as a random fan, it's not like I know him) at New York Comic Con, and he says he gets so much email at his public address that he doesn't bother to open it unless he knows the person. I'm sure he's not alone.

Therefore, for maximum impact if you're emailing, it would probably be best to have your complaint (or opinion) in the subject line. That way, even if they never open the emails, they still know people are annoyed by or happy about... whatever it might be.

Also, real honest to goodness snail mail is good, particularly postcards. The people at comic companies, unlike tv producers, are not used to being deluged by fanmail. Heck, they had to close the letters pages because they weren't getting enough to make it possible anymore.

(frozen)

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

Also, commenting on a writer or editor's blog or livejournal is great! It's public, so they sort of have a pressure to respond or at least look at it.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Brubaker reads at least some of his email. I know one person who got a reply back to her's(she was the one who made the Sue Dibney comparison), but putting your opinion in the subject line is a good idea.

I'll keep it in mind for the next email I send to a comics person.

(frozen)

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

You should post this with a scan (to make it legal) to scans_daily.

(frozen)

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

People like Warren Ellis and other writers and artist read and post to scans_daily, so you never know.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Warren Ellis will occasionally comment on posts that include his stuff. It's really amusing to see people's reactions when they realize it's him.

Bendis reads at least some of the things posted on his message board -- he's been known to reply to people very, um, bluntly.

(frozen)

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

Warren has used to make posts and comment a bit more than he does now. Then some idiot fan boy refused to get the point about not posting fanfic in the comments of his livejournal. He's still around, but I miss when he'd comment more often. It was always rather fun.

For some reason my mind has gone blank on some of the other names that have popped up on scans_daily in the comments. Google_Kid is someone but I can't remember who.

Still the GirlWonder project got a lot of support from scans_daily, so it can't hurt to make a post with a link back to this. We haven't had any good Steve/Tony scans in eons.

Err...sorry if this comes off bossy or anything. I think this is a great idea. Because I'd rather have the reset we know is coming happen sooner than later (my pet theory is that the Illuminati never left that Skrull ship)

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

We haven't had any good Steve/Tony scans in eons

There are some people in the fandom who still avoid scans_daily because of the atmosphere there during Civil War. I think some of the people who left due to all the animosity then just haven't gone back (I know I took it off my watch list so I wouldn't have to look at people fighting each other in comments anymore, and haven't gotten around to putting it back on yet, though I'll still go there and look sometimes).

(frozen)

[juniper200.livejournal.com]

the atmosphere there during Civil War

Not just then. Every time a Tony scan goes up, the comments make me rededicate myself to my goal of developing a way to deliver an electric shock via the Internet.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

There have been discussions of Ms. Marvel there (about a year/year-and-a-half ago) that made me feel the same way. Carol is a slut because she was raped? I... just... No.

Ah, for the days when scan_daily was all about squeeing over slashy subtext (if those ever really existed).

(frozen)

[kijikun.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize it was a sore spot in fandom, sorry about that. I know I had it off my f-list for a while during the photoshop wars.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, don't appologize. If you weren't around during Civil War (or weren't reading Marvel-related posts then) then all of the animosity would have been essentially invisible.

I think it's only a sore spot for a few long-time Tony fans (and there are a lot of people better at shrugging things off than I am who I'm sure didn't mind).

(frozen)

[liliaeth]

You wouldn't happen to have contact information for Dan Slott would you? Just wondering, maybe we should do something similar on the Spidey coms. Especially after the destruction of the character in BND.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I don't. I only searched for Avengers-related info.

I have a feeling BND is, like, the #3 most common thing mentioned in the "You suck" emails I'm sure Joe Quesada gets hundreds of (with #2 being Cap's death and #1 probably still being Civil War).

Dan Slott's not one of my favorite Marvel writers, though the first ten or so issues of The Initiative managed to hold my attention by dint of having Hank Pym and War Machine in them. That, and the Scarlet Spiders were kind of cute.

(frozen)

[harmonyangel.livejournal.com]

However, if you feel that "Fuck you, Brubaker, you suck, and I'll never buy this title again!" is the phrase that best sums up your feelings, don't let me discourage you; enough of those make an impact, too.

Would you go up to someone on the street and say this, because they were doing something you didn't like? Comic book writers are human beings. Even if you disagree with what they're doing, they deserve respect. Letters expressing opinions are one thing, but this sort of behavior is exactly what makes fans get written off as raving psychopaths who shouldn't be listened to. Encouraging it doesn't help anyone.

(frozen)

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

Would you go up to someone on the street and say this, because they were doing something you didn't like?

I have to strongly agree. That's not simply voicing disagreement with how an author is handling a particular storyline, that's being cruel. We wouldn't tell a fellow fanfic author to "fuck you, you suck", no matter how strongly we disagreed with their interpretations of the characters, and we certainly wouldn't encourage other people to mail them to do so.

And for what it's worth, I'm enjoying Brubaker's storyline with Bucky.

(frozen)

[seanchai.livejournal.com]

I have to strongly agree. That's not simply voicing disagreement with how an author is handling a particular storyline, that's being cruel. We wouldn't tell a fellow fanfic author to "fuck you, you suck", no matter how strongly we disagreed with their interpretations of the characters, and we certainly wouldn't encourage other people to mail them to do so.

And for what it's worth, I'm enjoying Brubaker's storyline with Bucky.

elspethdixon wasn't trying to convince people to be rude, so much as just encouraging them to make their opinions known for better or worse.

Maybe it's just me, but I took that particular line as being mostly sarcastic. Of course, I was sitting next to elspethdixon while she wrote this, and, well, that was her quoting me. I was being ranty, because I have a particular squick about women being mind controlled and raped, and I tend to lose perspective when it's triggered.

Comic authors are in a position of relative power compared to us fans, rather than being essential equals on the faceless internet. That doesn't necessarily make rudeness the appropriate response, but it does mean that in some ways, there's actually more room for critique. You can take a fellow ficcer off your f-list, but with the writers of canon, the only thing you can do is make your opinion known, whether by boycotting their titles, or actually writing a letter.

Quesada himself has admitted comic are a fan driven industry, and it's up to us as fans to let them know how we feel about what they're doing, whether we love it or hate it.

I usually attempt to be polite about it, but I feel no guilt in expressing my opinion, whether it's over a comic book, or a product or service that I felt had failed to meet my standards. By the same note, if I like something, I can be an annoyingly gushing proselytizer, so maybe I'm just obnoxiously outspoken for a girl.

(frozen)

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me, but I took that particular line as being mostly sarcastic.

Then my apologies to elspethdixon. I'm glad to hear she wasn't actually serious: I suppose the overall tone and force of her words made it seem like she was.

elspethdixon wasn't trying to convince people to be rude, so much as just encouraging them to make their opinions known for better or worse.

And I definitely agree with that --- that we should take the time out to tell comic folk how much we're enjoying their storylines, or if we're not, explain why. I think dialog between creators and fans is a wonderful thing.

For what it's worth, I probably feel the same way towards Mark Millar as she does towards Brubaker, and there many, many times that I've felt like cursing them out. So I definitely understand the desire to vent. But as harmonyangel said, we risk undermining fan-creator dialog when our negative feelings about the story lines overwhelm any considerations for creators and writers as people. I just think we all need to keep that in mind.

(frozen)

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

*him. Not "them." I originally had Frank Miller in there as well then decided to take him out. I don't dislike Mark as a story-teller *that* much.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

My take on Mark Millar is that he's seriously hampered by an utter lack of restraint -- he just kind of pours his id onto the page with utter fanboy abandon. Violence! Conflict! Lots of things go boom! Yay!

I don't think he intended, for example, to make Ult!Cap a violent ultra-conservative jerk more like USAgent than the real 616 Steve. I think he got carried away on the tide of "ZOMG, and then it would be really badass if he did/said X!" and a USAgent clone was the unfortunate result.

Frank Miller also basically pours his id onto a page. But that's how I write, too, so there's a limit to how much I can criticize it (my id hopefully doesn't contain a massive Madonna/Whore complex like his, but for all I know it contains other, equally dubious things).

My issues with Brubaker are partially that he's better than Millar and I ought to be able to expect better from him.

(frozen)

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

my id hopefully doesn't contain a massive Madonna/Whore complex like his

*snorts soda onto computer screen* No problems there, friend. 8}

I don't think he intended, for example, to make Ult!Cap a violent ultra-conservative jerk more like USAgent than the real 616 Steve.

And I can appreciate that. It's just the result when he puts his pen to writing Steve in the 616 universe and Ultimate! canon--- I would sell my first born to keep Steve out of his reach.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

when our negative feelings about the story lines overwhelm any considerations for creators and writers as people.

To be completely honest (I don't want to disingenously sound like a better, more forgiving person than I am), the fact that I know Brubaker (or Didio, or Orson Scott Card, or any other writers I've seethed at, though putting Brubaker in the same sentence as a homophobic creep like Card is an unfair comparison because no matter how much of a dick I may feel his recent Captain America storylines have proved him to be, it pales beside real-life offensive things like Card's screed against gay marriage) is a person just like me is one of the things that fuels my wrath when I get angry.

You can't really get angry at a bunch of faceless television network people, for example, the way you can at an individual. When Fox invariably cancels a show I like, I'm angry the show was cancelled, angry at the situation, but those two issues where Brubaker put Bucky in the costume and pulled the fake-out with 1950s fake Cap made me angry with Brubaker as a person, and (to be honest) caused me to have less respect for him first as a writer, for replacing an iconic, longstanding character with his own Mary Sue, which is something I'd expected a professional writer of his calibre to be above, and then as a person, for deliberately screwing with readers that way -- deliberately letting people think they were going to get Steve back and then intentionally disappointing them was blatant emotional manipulation of his readership that just... I really don't like it when I can tell a writer is gloating over the prospect of upsetting/disappointing me. It (IMO) demonstrates a lack of respect for one's readership that makes me, because I'm a petty person, feel like I don't owe any respect in return (I still do, of course, because that's basic politeness, but that was my irrational feeling).

So while I made very sure not to be violent or confrontational in the reaction-letters I sent, it was only because I worried that he might shrug me off as just a fan over-reacting -- because I wanted him to be personally hurt at least in terms of ego by my criticism and to take it to heart. I'm sure he didn't, and possibly even didn't read it, but my goal was to let him know that he'd lost my respect, and why, and if it hurt him in the process, then at the time, in the midst of my initial emotional reaction, I would have been glad. I wanted him to be upset the way I was upset, which probably doesn't speak very well for me as a person, I know.

So while I was joking, if it sounded like it wasn't a joke, it was because my anger when I sent my own letters was very real if probably irrational (I know I shouldn't be so overinvested in fictional characters), and because while I didn't actually end my email with "Go fuck yourself, asshole," or something like that, it wasn't for the lack of a really strong desire to do so.

(frozen)

[harmonyangel.livejournal.com]

Well, first of all, there's always editorial influence, and marketing influence, and a million other influences on comics. Laying the blame for a storyline squarely on the shoulders of one writer in mainstream superhero comics is unfair even in the best of circumstances.

Also, it's a well-established generic trope to tease something that turns out to be something else. It's the issue-ending cliffhanger. It's been a classic of comic books for decades. Believe me, I'm a Jean Grey fan. I know what it's like to have a resurrection teased. But if it's done well, within the context of a well-written story, it's certainly not a bad trope to use.

Brubaker has been seeding the use of the 1950s Cap since issue 7, when Bucky killed Jack Monroe. The whole book has been gearing up to that. It's not manipulation or bad storytelling - it's using a plan to craft a long story and carrying it through.

And Brubaker is doing something that Marvel has rarely tried - trying to create a legacy hero. DC does it all the time. Why shouldn't Marvel give it a shot?

You're allowed to dislike any and all of these story ideas, of course. That's the nature of any media - some will like it, and some will not. And in the case of something like the Sharon storyline, it's reasonable to be critical for ideological reasons. But thinking someone is a bad person because they're experimenting with a medium, or just using the tropes that have always been used? That's a reaction way out of proportion, and completely unfair to the writer.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I'm really not trying to make you mad or start an argument, just defending my position -- so if my vehemence comes across as confrontational it's not intentional.

Why shouldn't Marvel give it a shot?

I think Marvel shouldn't give it a shot because the fact that Marvel doesn't do them is one of the things that differentiates them from DC, and one of the reasons I prefer them. DC is all about the larger-than-life superhero aspect of the characters, and you can swap one Flash or Robin out for another because at the end of the day, it's the costume and the role that are the most important thing.

Marvel is about the human aspects of the characters, and at the end of the day, it's the person in the costume who matters the most, not the mask they wear. Replacing Steve with Bucky goes against that tradition of character-based storytelling. It says that Steve Rogers didn't matter, that only the costume did. Accepting Bucky in the costume means pretending Steve never mattered as a character.

And that's I think the real reason why I will no longer respect Brubaker as a writer if he's intending Bucky's tenure as fake!Cap to be permentant (aside from the obvious "Whee! I'll make my Mary Sue the star!" aspect). Because it goes against part of what I think makes Marvel Marvel.

It's a DC storyline, not a Marvel storyline. And if he were writing it for DC, I'd have fewer issues with it, but he's not.

Actually, I'd still have issues. It's the equivalent of replacing Batman with Jason Todd. Some characters aren't replacable.

Also, um... I thought you liked Steve. Don't you want to be able to read more canon about him? (I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational. I'm really serious here - I truly don't understand why you'd think getting rid of Steve forever and replacing him is a good idea if you like the character at all, because it means you'll never get to read anything about him again, and people usually like reading about characters they like)

(frozen)

[harmonyangel.livejournal.com]

First, I'm not trying to make you angry, either - I'm really not a very confrontational person, and I really do respect you tremendously as a writer. It just really troubles me to see hatred on a personal level directed at people simply because someone disagrees with their storytelling choices. As a writer, I wouldn't want someone to hate me because they disagreed with my writing choices, and I don't think you'd want that, either.

You make a good point, about the difference between Marvel and DC, and your dislike of this storyline makes perfect sense. But at the same time, I don't for a moment believe that Brubaker is intending to "replace" Steve, or claim he never mattered. There's a reason Bucky is wearing a different costume. He knows he can't live up to Steve. America knows he can't live up to Steve - we saw that when Bucky tried to speechify to the crowd. This story is absolutely infused with the essence of Steve, of what made him him and why others - the 1950s Cap, and Bucky - aren't, and can never be, Steve Rogers. Brubaker isn't trying to claim that Bucky and Steve are interchangeable, or that Bucky will be a better Cap, or anything of that sort. This is a story of a man trying to live up to a legacy, and realizing he's never going to be adequate, and trying to forge his own path while paying tribute to someone he respected so deeply. And, to me, that's fascinating.

I love Steve. He's my absolute favorite Marvel character. But I would much rather read a well-written story that gets into everything he means to this universe, even if he's not present, than a bad story that's just there to bring him back. I don't believe he's dead forever, and I don't think 99% of comic book readers do, either. But I'm willing to let Brubaker take his time and tell a good story, and trust that Steve will come back when the time is right, even if that takes a few years. Because as much as I love the character, I love good writing more. I desperately want Jean Grey to return, too, but if they tried to do a repeat of her horrendously-executed resurrection from the 1980s, I wouldn't want to read it.

There will be more current, in-continuity Steve stories, eventually. And in the meantime, I'm sure we'll get plenty of miniseries, and what ifs, and dream sequences, and flashbacks, and all manner of other things. The character's too important to be forgotten. And there are hundreds of issues of back canon to contend with, too. All of that will be more than enough to personally tide me over until his eventual, and inevitable, return.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad to read this reply, because I'd interpreted your comment as something entirely different than it apparently was (and was then worried I'd upset you/insulted you with my emotion-driven reply. I understand being on disturbed by a lot of fannish anger you don't share, because I'm often the one left standing there going "but girls are pretty and I like looking at them" when other fans are deeply offended by the sexualization of a female character, and it's not always a comfortable place).

You didn't make me angry, though -- actually, I was probably on the verge of tears from being tipped back into "OMG, she thinks Brubaker's trying to start a legacy tradition and really doesn't intend to bring Steve back ever just like I'm afraid of there is no reason to hope and I should give up comics forever" mental territory. It is not a good place, because I got into comics during a time when there was a lot of RL stress going on in my life and project my emotions onto them pretty heavily, as everyone whose ever had a conversation about them with me can probably tell.

The fact that I share a household with someone who does the same thing, and that last year coincided with some RL depression issues in our family, didn't help. I probably subconsciously blame Ed Brubaker for that, too, despite the fact that it had everything to do with brain chemistry and nothing to do with him. Rationality and I are only nodding acquaintences on this topic.

as much as I love the character, I love good writing more. I desperately want Jean Grey to return, too, but if they tried to do a repeat of her horrendously-executed resurrection from the 1980s, I wouldn't want to read it.

See, I'm more like a stereotypical fanboy in that way -- while I would love a gloriously well-written resurrection arc, I'd be happy with anything that brought him back now. I don't want to wait five to ten years. As much as I love comics, my dedication couldn't hold out in the face of that endless a stretch of depression-inducing reading.

If Steve isn't back by issue fifty, I'll probably have to give up on the title entirely, because flashbacks and dream sequences and what ifs aren't the same -- they just rub in the fact that real Steve isn't there, like salt in a wound. And anything that kills my enjoyment of comics that way saddens me because I love comics.

Character death usually permenantly destroys a fandom for me -- OotP killed not only my interest in reading anything else by JKR again, to the point where I haven't even read Deathly Hallow and never intend to despite the fact that HP was my first fandom, but also any desire to read fic for the fandom. It's a testemant to how much I like the rest of the Marvel U and characters that that hasn't happened yet with Marvel.

(frozen) Reply-Edited

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

I think Marvel shouldn't give it a shot because the fact that Marvel doesn't do them is one of the things that differentiates them from DC, and one of the reasons I prefer them.

And I'd disagree: as a Marvel and DC reader, I think the boundaries are a lot more blurred than you're portraying here. For DC, it's not simply about swapping one character for another in a role for example (although DC will occasionally commit that grievous mistake). It's about what their characters brings to that larger-than-life role. Dick Grayson was a very different Robin from Jason, Tim and Steph. Ditto for Jaime Reyes and Ted Kord as the Blue Beetles of the DCU.

Neither is Marvel exempt from dealing with legacy. They're already started with the Young Avengers---whether or not their members have a direct relationship with the Avengers themselves. They are all grappling with their own legacies: Eli's and Captain America, Billy and Tommy with the Scarlet Witch, Kate's and Hawkeye's, Cassie and her father, and where they all fit in the huge family that is the Avengers.

And Captain America, to me, is one of the few Marvel heroes who approaches the larger-than-life, epic grandeur that DC bestows on its characters. The title has such a powerful resonance as a symbol of good for everyone in the MU. Why shouldn't Marvel explore that? I find the current examinations of that legacy to be a compelling one---far more so that Superman's after his own death. 8}

Accepting Bucky in the costume means pretending Steve never mattered as a character.

No it does not. It's canon that Steve wasn't the only Captain America. We have Isaiah Bradley, the two men who replaced Steve after the war and protected John Kennedy, after Steve was presumed dead. It was never something Steve treated as exclusively his, but a title and symbol of the country he loves and serves.

Others' accomplishments in the role, the fact they shared that title with Steve does not diminish him. It does not diminish Steve's kindness and heroism. It does NOT somehow invalidate the very real love and respect people in the MU had for Steve Rogers as their Captain America, or our own.

(frozen) Re: Reply-Edited

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

You know, I had an extremely long response typed up where I explained that Steve's very iconic status made him a poor choice for a legacy (like having a James Bond movie without James Bond in it and some random guy as 007), and that I read comics in order to read about the characters I cared about, not other people in their costumes, and pointing out all of the DCU legacies that fans have hated as proof of my point (i.e. from Jason Todd being hated to the point that he was voted dead even though Dick was still around as Nightwing to fans not accepting Kyle as a replacement for Hal Jordan despite the fact that it's canon that there are many Green Lanterns), but on second thought I'm only going to give this summary of it *points up*

This is a topic that it turns out can still make me upset to the point of tears after a year and a half, and it's turning out to not be something I can debate respectfully or politely. Every time I read any comments in favor of Steve staying dead, even mild and polite ones like this... it's too triggering for me. I can't handle it. So my apologies for the overly emotional nature of the whole conversation and I think I probably ought to shut up now.

Plus, saying that fanboys agree with me on message board is essentially the same thing as saying lurkers support me in email. I'm freezing comments on this whole post before I truly lose it and land us all on fandom_wank (not because of you, or harmonyangel, or anyone else who's come on to disagree with me, but because I'm clearly not mature enough or emotionally stable enough for this discussion).

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Would you go up to someone on the street and say this, because they were doing something you didn't like?

If I ran into Brubaker in person at a com, especially if it had been directly after CA #34 or CA #38, I'm pretty sure I would have told him to his face almost exactly what I thought of him (I don't quite have the self-confidence in person to tell him exactly what I think so I'd probably end up being polite out of social anxiety and severely softening my criticism with things like "but I liked your first 30 or so issues really a lot until I realized things weren't getting better any time soon") but I have some long-standing anger management issues. You're right in that I wouldn't use profanity, though.

That bit was mostly a joke -- and probably not a very good one, and a little bit thrown in there because I knew that was a lot of people's honest opinion on the whole thing (maybe not anyone here, but a lot of the fanboys on the message boards seanchai reads). On second thought, I'm going to go back and take it out.

I made very sure that the two letters I sent Brubaker were free from profanity (though it took three drafts and waiting until a week after the comic in question had been published before I could get the distance required to do it), hence suggesting that a more rational complaint would work better, but I didn't want to tell people not to express their opinion if that's what it was.

I'd assumed that large numbers of extremely angry reactions from their readership would have an impact, but maybe I'm over-estimating their marketing intelligence ("All reactions are good, even negative ones!" is an unfortunately common idea in business by people who should know better) and you're right. After all, I'm pretty sure Dan Didio used exactly that rationale ("violent anger means people are paying attention and all attention is good!") when he wanted DC to kill off Dick Grayson and have Jason Todd replace him during Infinite Crisis (killing Kon was apparently a trade off on the writers' part because they thought that idea was idiotic and wanted to Dick but Didio wanted to off someone).

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

On second thought, I left that bit in because now that everyone's seen it, removing it wouldn't accomplish much/might be disingenuous, but I added this:

[Edit: It has been brought to my attentention that cussing writers/editors out is extremely rude, and may not just be less effective than less-confrontational approaches but possibly actually counter-productive. So I guess you ought to weigh the possibiity of the person you're contacting either not taking you seriously or being hurt against the satisfaction you might derive from telling them to go f**k themselves. It may not be worth it.]

(frozen)

[lenija.livejournal.com]

(OMG, I have to kill a spider to comment here? *resurrects poor spider*)

There are over 200 people on [info]cap_ironman. That's almost 3% of Captain America's entire readership.** Whatever your opinion is, if you make it known to Marvel, it may have more influence than you think.

You're making a good point. Not having been in comic fandom for long, I wasn't quite aware of how small the readership really is, and thus how powerful. When you have all these LJ-communities on your friendslist and see a lot of posts about your current fandom every day, it feels like you're part of a large community, where your voice doesn't count much. Looking at those numbers I realize that the reality may be very different indeed. I think I'm going to follow your advice and give some authors a piece of my mind some constructive criticism. And squee.

if you had retconed Tony into a skrull, I would have, in the immortal words of Bender, lost all respect for you and punched you.

That's an example of what I could write, too. *g*

And now I'm a bit scared. Because - *coughs* - I mostly like the current Captain America storyline. Apparently I'm in the minority. Although, granted, I probably wouldn't like it if I were a long time Captain America fan. And I'm absolutely in favor of Steve coming back; I just assumed it will happen sooner or later, and I don't mind waiting a bit longer as long as I get 25 pages of Bucky every month. Uhm.
So. This is what I should be telling Brubaker, right? ;)

(frozen)

[maybemabel.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I have utter confidence that Steve will return (before 2011), and with that in mind, I am able to enjoy Captain America. (Though I agree about being really, REALLY unhappy with Sharon's storyline right now.)

(frozen)

[lenija.livejournal.com]

To my shame I have to admit that until now I never gave Sharon's storyline enough consideration, probably because I don't have a strong connection to her as a character. Now that I do think about it, I absolutely agree with your and elspethdixon's critique. In conversations with my friends I have ranted about how so many female characters' storylines and characterization don't work for me, but somehow I still seem to have accepted it as a fact, removed my feminist glasses and concentrated on the male characters while reading certain storylines, including this one. I won't do that again, and I'm going to transfer my rants into the public sphere, too.

(Because why wasn't I very interested in Sharon as a character? Well, most probably because I got to know her first in the second half of Brubaker's Captain America. Hm. Hm.)

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

What funny is that I'm not exactly a font of femminist-comics cred (I let a lot of things slide that other female readers find really irritating). The sense of squick over Sharon's storyline crept up on me. I initially defended the "brainwashed into sleeping with Steve and then shooting him" part to seanchai because I thought it was good symbolic drama (Steve is betrayed by someone he loved and trusted, completing the trinity of betrayals started by the American people/government and by Tony) and because just about every male character in the title had been brainwashed, too (Bucky was brainwashed for decades, for one).

Then she turned out to be pregnant, which is something that can only happen to women, so it felt less like treating her the same way you'd treat a male character and more like singling her out for a special dose of gendered misery. Then she ended up Red Skull/Faustus's puppet again to be brainwashed some more while Bucky's Winter Soldier brainwashing was definitively broken. Then, when she finally got some agency back for the first time in ages and tried to escape, she got stabbed in the stomach (so now she can lose the baby and be miserable some more and the entire pregancy plot will have accomplished precisely nothing except to make Sharon suffer - if she were at least getting character growth out of it, I'd be less annoyed, but she's not, because she's still being mind-controlled).

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I have to kill a spider to comment here? *resurrects poor spider*

*Looks at comment button for the first time in three years* Oh. You know, I just realized. Maybe now that I'm in comics fandom I should get rid of my old Trigun "sometime you have to kill a spider to save a butterfly" comment buttons, because it almost sounds like I'm talking about Peter (rather than a moral philosophy or real spiders which are creepy and gross) and I love him.

I mostly like the current Captain America storyline. Apparently I'm in the minority. Although, granted, I probably wouldn't like it if I were a long time Captain America fan. And I'm absolutely in favor of Steve coming back; I just assumed it will happen sooner or later, and I don't mind waiting a bit longer as long as I get 25 pages of Bucky every month. Uhm.
So. This is what I should be telling Brubaker, right? ;)

Yes, exactly! Honestly, I liked the storyline too, at first, even the "brainwashed Sharon is forced to be the one to do it" part (my discomfort over her storyline came later, when the pregnancy part happened). I thought issue #25 was brilliant, but that was when I thought we were going to have Cap back within six months,or at least no longer than a year. My anger/resentment built up gradually over months of comics wherein [I, at least] could practically hear Brubaker cackling "Aahahaha, you want me to bring Cap back, but I haven't yet! Maybe I never will! Now I'm making Bucky my Mary Sue! Oooh, I'll let you think he's coming back for a month or so, but ha, suckers, he's not!" until it's pretty much entirely poisoned my previous liking for him as a writer. Which is sad, because I really loved the beginning of his run on Daredevil (up through #93).

I initially really liked watching Winter Soldier Bucky and everyone else struggle to deal with Steve's death (well, as long as I could convince myself it was a very short-term, temporary death), but once Bucky was in the costume, my resentment over being asked to accept someone other than Steve as Captain America again ruined it for me. Also, it makes me resent Bucky because he's being used to replace Steve, and I want to be able to like him.

(frozen)

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I'm curious where you are seeing these sales figures.

The only sales figures I am aware of regarding comics have to do with how many comics are shipped to stores. Since comics aren't sold on a remainder policy, then as far as I know, nobody is keeping track of how many single issues actually end up in the hands of customers. Is there some source of figures you're using that I'm not aware of?

(frozen)

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

Well, you can sort of guess from the sales figures, just... not *those* sales figures. The next few months. Because if people buy fewer copies of issue 1, the store will order fewer issues of issue 3 or 4.

Also, trade paperbacks are a totally different thing. Many, many of them are bought by comic shops through book distributors, so they're subject to Bookscan and the remainder policy.

(frozen)

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

But none of those things are actually sales figures for individual issues. That's all I was asking.

I think extrapolating a turndown in the book's sales due to fan discontent with Bucky-Cap needs harder data.

(frozen)

[seanchai.livejournal.com]

I tend to find Diamond sales stats to be reasonably indicative of how a title is trending over a period of time. Going by those, and by the general discontent I've heard from pretty much every fanboy (and girl) in the various comic stores I've been to, the slow drop in sales strikes me as having some significance.

(frozen)

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

That answers my question, thank you.

(frozen)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

*points* What she said. I try to avoid official comics sites because future solicits aren't real spoilers - just enough inconclusive info to stress me out, rather than removing the stress of uncertainty as spoilers are supposed to do -- so I rely on seanchai for all official sales and profit data and the solicit info she thinks will make me happy rather than annoyed.

In return, I tell her what's happened in the latest issue of Secret Invasion (i.e. "Tony's still not a skrull.").

(frozen) Better than letters or email...

[viloki9.livejournal.com]

Conventions, especially the San Diego Comic-Con. They usually have 45-30 min of Q & A sessions if the writers don't have anything planned at their panels, and yes they have to answer your questions.

For example, there was a Straczynski panel, where a very grumpy fan asked him about Brand New Day. And he confirmed that he wasn't happy about Brand New Day and Quesada basically went up to him an said, "Write this." In my eyes, this pretty much exonerates Straczynski of any blame.

Subsequently, in the Marvel panel, which Quesada moderated, multiple fans went after Quesada for Brand New Day. And yes, I can confirm your suspicion 100% that Quesada is a douche bag who insists that Spiderman 'has' to be a loser because 'that's who he is'... I had to leave 3/4ths of the way into that panel, I was so disgusted. And all the writers looked so uncomfortable because the whole time it was Quesada acting like an idiot and raving at any fan who was a little dissatisfied with anything. Sometimes it's like watching his brain disconnecting from his mouth... *eyeroll*

My friend then also confirmed that Didio, head of DC, was a douche too.

The only chief editor that moderated their panel with a cool head was the chief of Vertigo. She totally took all criticism in stride and she'd nod thoughtfully and say she'd take it into consideration. I mean, she doesn't have to do anything about what the fan said, but I think chief editors should at least maintain decorum when dealing with unhappy fans.

Anyways, conventions definitely give you a lot of insight into writers and their relationship with the comics that they write, sometimes they write stuff they don't want to, sometimes there's problems that you aren't aware of until you watch them roll their eyes every time the editor says something dumb.

(frozen) Re: Better than letters or email...

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, I actually have a lot more respect for Quesada than most fans (my anger is for Brubaker and Didio), despite agreeing that BND is one of the stupidest things in comics' long history of stupid things (so stupid, OMG). He pulled Marvel out of near-bankruptcy in the late 90s, and he's also responsible for a lot of things that I like. But then, I'm primarily a Cap/Iron Man/Avengers-centric fan; if I were primarily a Spider-man fan, I might feel differently. I'm definately not buying Amazing Spiderman until BND goes away - I get my Spidey fix from New Avengers and Marvel Adventures, where I never have to hear about BND (maybe Bendis thinks it's stupid, too, who knows?).

Honestly, I'm not surprised at all that Straczynski wasn't happy about BND and didn't want to do it (which is something I've heard from several sources already), because it basically erases everything he did while working on the title. I'm not totally thrilled with every single plotline he wrote, though I was a huge fan of both Aunt May finally know Peter was Spider-man (because it was about bloody time, after that many years) and of the organic web-shooters (because they were cool), but God, having to do that would suck.

It's one thing to "fix" an unpopular storyline (bringing back a dead character, ending or re-starting a relationship, retconning in mind-control to explain away a characters' actions) but having to make it so that every single thing major thing you did working on a title never even happened?

(frozen) Re: Better than letters or email...

[viloki9.livejournal.com]

I'm not knocking Quesada's business sense, but I mean... that's what he views all these things we're emotionally invested in as: business. It's like how you can't knock Bill Gates for his business sense because he's good at making money, but when it comes to the general health and well-being of the computer industry, he's the black plague.

Quesada kind of has these generalizations about what works, and those generalizations were better for a failing comics publisher and the general trend in the 90s, but lately, his ideas haven't been so great. Most of the spiderman fans are pissed, Captain America fans are dwindling, and generally there hasn't been too much interest around Secret Invasion, esp. amongst the regulars. Suddenly he's on this trend of bringing back really obscure, forgotten characters that no one really cares about (Electric Ant, Blue Marvel, etc...) while he brushes away characters that people are starting to get interested in because of a major event surrounding them (Dr. Strange). btw, Marvel Apes? WTF?

Maybe it's all gone to his head or something... I haven't liked his large 'events' for a while. I've mostly only stuck with New Avengers and then some Runaways and Thor. I find that sticking with publishers doesn't really work anymore, I'm mostly only subscribing to writers or artists now and then I just use Wiki to fill me in on background stuff.